Currently there seems to be a real spate of problems (but see this), and people in the UK are beginning to complain of the same thing. You should be able to fit the rebound straps by jacking each spring up under the body - without any extra weight in the boot - before the body starts lifting off its supports. On UK-sourced springs I have done this without difficulty, even putting the harder rubber-bumper springs on a chrome-bumper car. Similarly people have asked how to get the shackles pointing to the rear instead of the front. Again it is a matter of spring hardness - the correct springs should be almost flat with just the weight of the unladen body, and as they take the weight of the body and start to flatten they will move backwards. If the weight of the car is on its wheels, even unladen, and they aren't pointing slightly backwards, the springs you have are simply too hard or over-arched for your car. However it occurs to me that all the work I have done has been on a chrome-bumper car. With the lower shackle mounting position relative to the chassis rails of rubber-bumper cars it is possible that these can lock in the fully forward position unless levered downwards while jacking slightly higher. However once the rebound straps are fitted this shouldn't occur again. Updated August 2007: Since writing this I've had to replace the rear springs on the V8. Having now bought three sets of springs from three different suppliers and fitted them to two different cars I have never had any problems using simply the weight of the body to compress the springs enough to attach shackles, damper drop-links and rebound rubbers, and this includes fitting harder RB roadster springs to a CB roadster. Nor have I had any problems with the shackle 'locking up' in a forward position on either CB or RB car. See Rear Spring Replacement.

My problem has been the opposite - ride-height too low and grounding over 'sleeping policemen' and rough ground particularly when laden (we use the car frequently for holidays with a comprehensive tool kit and trolley-jack as well as luggage). I had tried and removed rubber-bumper roadster springs as part of another exercise which raised the ride height just fine, but being harder they gave a very unpleasant choppy rise over some surfaces. In July 2003 I modified some shackles by 'cutting and shutting' to give about an inch extra height at the rear, as described below in 'Extended Shackles'.

Notes:

1. Information from Clausager, Factory WorkShop Manual, Factory Parts Catalogue, Special Tuning Manual, and Haynes.
   
2. The 73-on Roadster, CB and RB, and RB GT all had the same front springs as indicated above.
   
3. 'Loaded Height' is at the specified 'Load Weight' i.e. partially compressed. The difference between the free height and loaded height is the deflection, or the working load divided by the rate.
   
4. Clausager refers to the 1972 change as a 1/2" increase to all models to prevent excessive settling on export models when lashed down on ships decks for long periods, however the workshop manual shows a change of about 1/4" at that time.
   
5. Clausager makes reference to what he calls a 'Part number change only' in November 1972. However the Workshop Manual has three sets of specs for the CB roadster - I have assumed (maybe wrongly) that the third set is in fact the November 72 set that Clausager mentions. I have called these '1973 Roadster'. Dave Wood states he received a recall notice for his 72B later that year for a spring change to raise the height by 1/4" to meet minimum headlight heights which would seem to concur with the workshop manual. The Parts manual only has two part numbers covering the change early in 72, not the change in November 72.

Spring quality in terms of what height you end up with has been problematic for years - sometimes higher than expected sometimes lower. If they are higher then about all you can do is opt for a softer spring from the list and hope, I wouldn't fancy cutting some off as some have apparently done. Finding them too low has happened when people have selected a 'lowered' or competition spring, and in that case you can put shims in the spring pan. Moss sell nylon spacers, these are 3/16" (5mm) thick, and say you can use two maximum, the outside of the spring pan is pretty deep but the inner raised section is less. The effect is about double at the hub so two will raise the front by about 3/4".

Notes:
1. Information from Clausager, Factory Workshop Manuals, Factory Parts Catalogue, Special Tuning Manual, and Haynes.
2. Although the roadster originally is described as having five leaves and a bottom plate ('six leaves' elsewhere) and the GT is described as having six leaves and a bottom plate ('seven leaves' elsewhere) both the 63-on CB roadster and various GT springs are described as having 3 leaves of each thickness. This seems contradictory, and the roadster did get shorter U-bolts when it reverted to the previous number of leaves in September 1975.
3. These springs are listed - without prices - by GB Springs as 'Heritage Car Springs', with some variations from the original part numbers. Some of these seem to be where the spec was changed for a particular model, only the later spec is now supplied, for example only one CB roadster spring is listed whereas until May 1963 a different spring was used. Also they don't list a CB GT spring but it was the same one used for early RB roadsters i.e. AHC 31.
4. With 11/16" rear ARB.

A	eye centre to eye centre	41 1/4"
B	inverted height from floor to top of top spring	8 5/8"
C	front eye centre to pin top centre	19 1/8"

See also the picture on the right of the table.

Remember these are relatively new rubber-bumper roadster springs, but all others should be close. If your dimension A is significantly less and B is significantly more then over-arching is the problem. If the dimensions are close but you still cannot compress them enough during installation, or the resultant ride-height is much too high, then the leaves are much too hard. In either case get your money back and source them from a reputable supplier in the UK.

April 2021:
See also Tony Davisons measurements of old and new CB springs, and his account of replacing them.

Update January 2013: By now it's probably best to leave off the 'in the UK' as people here are getting duff springs as well. But Mark Bates in the US had the 'submissive monkey' stance, the rebound rubbers were pulled taut and snapped while parked. He removed them and found that dimension B - the arch - was fully an inch and a half more than mine. He purchased another set from The B Hive in America and they do have very similar unloaded dimensions to mine.

Secondly, it is my experience that the tapered ARB drop-link pin (all bar 74 to 76 RB roadsters) seizes in the spring-pan, and the two have to be removed together for them to be parted on the bench. If this happens you have no option but to use my preferred method.

Removing the lower fulcrum pivot bolt (through the swivel axle trunnion and outer end of the A-arms) is a single operation and allows you to lower the spring pan on the jack while it is still held securely, until all spring tension is released. With the jack out of the way you push the pan down a bit more with one hand and simply lift the spring out with the other. That done, you can tackle the spring-pan to A-arm bolts in complete safety.

This method also allows you to inspect the thrust-washers on the pivot bolt, and reverse or replace them if grooved which can silence clonks when applying the brakes.

Another more recent option has been to remove just two of the spring-pan bolts, and slacken the other two, then allow the spring pan top pivot down on the A-arms. But the A-arms are not parallel so the pan is going to bind between the arms unless the slackened bolts are very slack. This will almost certainly have to be the inner bolts given that the ARB drop-link pin seizes in the spring-pan. Also if removing the spring is anything to do with working on the A-arms, replacing the inner bushes, or any of the pivot pin components, the pivot pin will have to be removed anyway so you might as well do it up front. With the rear two bolts through the spring-pan and A-arm removed, and where fitted the drop-link detached from the ARB, both A-arms can be removed, the front one complete with spring-pan and drop-link.

I actually painted it on semi-congealed rather than as a liquid suitable for spraying, then used a hot air gun to melt it whereupon most of it was absorbed into the gaps between leaves and interleaving and little dripped off. At first it didn't seem to have made much difference, but then over a bit of driving it seems to have 'worked in' and they have definitely become much quieter and now I can't say that I notice them at all and neither has the Navigator commented recently. It would have been much easier to apply with the springs removed from the car and laying on their sides, but a much bigger job overall of course.

In response to a question on a Bulletin Board I mentioned this but another contributor said he didn't like Waxoyl because it dried out. In my experience whilst it does 'dry' in that the white spirit that makes it liquid evaporates it leaves behind the waxy stuff which if you rub it between your finger tips is still slippery i.e. does still lubricate, and as I say is much less likely to get washed out than oil or even grease. And being drier it will pick up less dirt and grit.

Update August 2007: Having broken a rear spring on this year's Snowdon Run before I replaced them I laid the new springs on their sides, painted on some dollops of Waxoyl, then used a heat gun to melt it into the crevices between springs and interleaving. When they were 'dry' I could pick them up by the eyes and it was a cleaner job than I was expecting to fit them while coated. Incidentally, this is the third set of springs I have bought from three separate suppliers and fitted to two different cars - one chrome one rubber, including stiffer rubber bumper roadster springs to the chrome bumper roadster, and I have never had any trouble getting the shackles, damper drop-links or rebound rubbers attached, or in getting the shackles to point downwards. The weight of the body was more than enough to compress the springs before the body lifted off the axle stands in all cases.

The results were quite interesting: Both 4-cylinder and V8 rubber bumper cars have lowered front and rear mounting points consisting of a deeper front bracket and the holes for the rear shackle pins being below the centre-line of the chassis rail, but the chrome bumper V8 only has deeper front brackets, the rear points are through the chassis rail just like the 4-cylinder car. Even so the front brackets are different between chrome and rubber bumper V8 - the rubber bumper part looks deeper than the chrome bumper, and has a reinforcing piece, and this partial lowering at the rear seems to be confirmed by the CB V8 drop-link being 9.75" long whereas the CB 4-cylinder is 8.5" and all RB cars are 10.5" . Whilst British Motor Heritage lists rear spring front hangers, it only differentiates between chrome bumper and rubber bumper, V8 is not mentioned, ditto Brown & Gammons and Moss Europe which quote the BMH part numbers.

June 2016: I've just become aware of a news item posted in 2015 on the West Cheshire MG Club website (scroll to the bottom) saying that BMH guarantees correctly specced springs made by GB Springs. However I can find no reference to them on the BMH website. But GB Springs on their website do list what looks like the full range for the MGB at least, plus for other models and marques.

February 2023: At last as a result of conversations with Noel Wade I've found this page which includes the following:

March 2023: Noel has contacted me again to say that several suppliers now have the GB Springs with the Heritage sticker, including Moss where he has purchased his. I'm hoping to get an update following installation. However at the time of writing looking at the specifications of the six springs Moss list three say 'after-market' and three don't, so you would need to check with Moss.

April 2023: Noel has now got his car back, it sits level and at the correct height and he is very pleased.

August 2007:
Spot the difference. Following the breakage of a rear spring on the V8 on the 2007 Snowdon Run I ordered replacements from the MGOC and approached fitting them with some trepidation. Would I have the same over-arched/too hard springs that so many seem to have? Would I find the bolt seized in the front eye bush that Americans frequently complain of? In the event I had neither. The front nuts came undone easily with nothing more than a spanner, and when the shackles and U-bolts had been undone and the rear of the spring lowered to the floor the bolts just tapped/twisted out. With the new springs fitted and the weight on the car there is a decent amount of slack in the rebound strap, about 3 1/2" between the top of the bump-stop pedestal and the bottom of the bump rubber, and about 15 7/8" measured between the centre of the wheel hub and the bottom of the trim strip.

On fitting the new springs one point that did differ on the rubber bumper V8 compared to the CB roadster (both CB roadster and RB roadster springs on this car) is that on the V8 I only had to lift the springs up by hand and I could insert the shackles. On the roadster I had to jack under the spring to slide the rear eye back along the chassis rail until I could get the shackle inserted, probably because the harder RB V8 springs had less free arch than the CB roadster. One problem I had with the V8 that I hadn't had with the roadster with either new red poly bushes at one time and new rubber another, is that the latest bushes have a significantly thicker flange than before, which meant that even without the lock-washers I couldn't get the nuts started. I had to squeeze the sides of the shackle together with a small sash cramp to compress the bushes before I could get the washers on and the nuts started. Other than that everything was straightforward, the only complication on the V8 being the Hopkinson anti-roll bar. To get the bracket of this located on the U-bolts I had to jack under the spring until the bracket was just below the end of the U-bolts, then slowly lower it whilst locating the bracket holes over the threaded ends, until enough thread was sticking through to get the nuts started. Both the front eye bolts and the shackle nuts are done up until they suddenly come tight as the front hanger butts up against the bush sleeve, and the shackle pins have shoulders which the closing plate clamps down onto. How tight to do the U-bolt nuts is always an awkward question - I've never seen a torque figure given, so how tight do you go? Having done this job several times now it seems to me that as you start to compress the flat rubber bushes either side of the spring the nuts get stiffer quite gradually, then they seem to get quite a bit stiffer quite quickly. This is about the point I stop, but they need checking again after a short shakedown drive, and again several hundred miles later (checking the front eye bolt and the shackle nuts as well this time). During my shakedown drive I noticed some creaking coming from the right-hand side, on my return I could tighten this side quite a bit more (possibly as I did that side a couple of days prior to the left-hand side) and on a second run the creaking had disappeared. One thing that did not change was the rear ride-height.

One thing I did which I usually do when re-fitting MGB components, to ensure easy removal in the future, is to coat the front bolt and bush and the rear shackle pins and bushes and the rear chassis holes with Waxoyl. Before fitting I had also laid the springs down on one side, painted a decent layer of Waxoyl on, then ran my heat-gun up and down to completely melt it into the joints between springs and interleaving. When that had solidified I turned them over and treated the other side. Not even that messy when picking them up to fit to the car, and that is what latex gloves are for.

So I have now bought three different types of spring, from three different suppliers, over a period of years, and fitted them to two different cars, and never had the 'too-hard/arched' problem that so many complain about. Am I just lucky? Or is everyone that gets this problem buying from dodgy suppliers? Or are they simply not installing them correctly? I wish I knew.

July 2010: A pal's MGB fails its MOT with a broken rear spring.
Unlike the V8 it wasn't obvious as the wheel was still central in the wheel arch, as this car has the factory rear anti-roll bar which controls the fore and aft position of the axle. I suppose the ride height might have been a little lower that side but it wasn't obvious. Keith brought it round, but when the door bell went I hadn't heard the car, apparently it had conked out round the corner! This time (on the last visit it conked out two streets away, so an improvement) a fuel leak had developed and emptied the tank. A short push to a convenient slope allowed the car to roll round the corner and onto the drive, so that was going to be the first job. In the event the rubber hose between the pump and the metal pipe leading to the carbs had split, so an easy fix, and I was able to manoeuvre the car into the best place for the spring change.

For security I drove the front of the car up onto ramps, with the front of the car pointing down the slight slope on my drive. The rear was supported on axle stands just in front of the front eye, with pieces of wood inserted into the flanges of the bracket between the floor reinforcement section an the axle stand. If one end is on its wheels and you are pulling an pushing at things it's very easy to tip stands over, particularly if its the front on the ground and the rear in the air, even with chocks.

This time not so lucky as both front eye bolts are seized in the spacer tubes. I can turn the bolt with a spanner, but as I release the pressure I can feel them springing back a bit, so the spacer is turning inside the rubber bush. Pondered cutting through with a jig-saw, but they can only cope with a few mm of metal, so opt for a cutting disc for the (4 1/4") angle-grinder. Only had grinding discs before, which are thicker and have an off-set flange. Discovered that with the thinner, flat cutting disc the locking ring has to be turned over so the flat side contacts the disc, as otherwise it isn't gripped.

Decide to cut the spring off the eye as close to the eye as I can, to give me as much space as possible to cut up the sides of the eye and through the bolt and spacer tube. I was gobsmacked at how quickly it made the first cut, probably less than a minute, and with that out the way the other two cuts probably less than 2 minutes each. Angle the grinder for the first cut so the sparks fly away from the car and not under it, and downwards for the other two cuts. This meant that with one of the cuts each side it didn't go through all the way in one go, so just turn the eye 180 degrees and cut through the rest. The eye just dropped out of the bracket, and a bit of wiggling got the thin ring that was the end of the spacer tube off the remains of the bolt. Less than five minutes, and no collateral damage to the bracket or anything else, it took me longer to get the spring and bottom plate off the U-bolts!

One bump-stop pedestal had completely rotted away, and the other was hanging on by a thread, so replacements needed for those as well as the front eye bolts. Reassembled everything with Waxoyl, turning to a clear liquid on what was a very warm day. As on the V8 with the front eyes mounted the rear shackles lined up with the chassis rail holes without compressing the spring, neither did the shackles lock under the chassis rail when I jacked up under the spring to fit the U-bolts and bottom plate. Again the U-bolts and plates were the biggest fiddle, getting them lined up, and getting the 'bump' in the top plate lined up with the hole in the bottom of the axle spring-pad. The factory anti-roll bar makes this slightly more difficult as you can't move the axle fore and aft directly, you have to rotate the whole axle to move the spring mounting pad into position over the spring. The second side is even worse as with the first side fitted you can't even do that, and a firm push from a foot on the brake drum was needed. One thing I noticed is that the new front bolts are only just long enough, and that is with the old nuts and lock-washers. Nylocs were supplied with the bolts but to be honest I don't think they were long enough to get the requisite minimum three threads clear, as it was the end of the bolt was just shy of the end of the nut. Other than that (well, there are only the shackles left!) it all went back together inside the hour, and that includes wheels on and tools etc., put back in the garage.

Herb Adler tackles the same problem.

In July 2003 I decided I had to do something about it. I did have rubber bumper roadster springs on for a while (part of another exercise) and whilst these gave me the extra height they were also harder and gave a choppy and unpleasant ride over some surfaces and eventually the proper springs went back on. I considered re-arching these springs but felt that would be a bit hit and miss. The alternative was longer shackles. I was surprised to find that rubber bumper and chrome bumper cars used the same shackles. Seeing as how the front eye is only about an inch or so lower, but the car is 1 1/2" higher, the extra must come from extra spring hardness and/or arching and this does seem to be the case on my RB V8. I did find some adjustable shackles but they are very expensive, more than I was prepared to spend. A few enquiries elicited no other sources of longer shackles, other than paying an engineering shop to produce some, or modifying standard ones myself.

The very expensive adjustable shackles mentioned above have three pairs of holes for the bottom pin, which is just a long bolt going through both plates. The originals have the pins pressed into splined holes in the shackle plate and the pins have a double shoulder at the threaded end, the smaller of which fits into the hole in the closing plate. This keeps the threads away from the side of the hole so protecting them, but more importantly makes the tightened shackle a rigid parallelogram, aiding spring and hence axle location. Plain bolts will allow the rectangle of the closed shackle to be distorted into a rhomboid during cornering, which will give more lateral movement of the spring and hence the axle. Over time this will tend to make the holes in the plates oval and wear grooves in the bolts so weakening them. There is also the issue of tightening the shackles. Even when the original shackle is tightened to 30 lb.ft. the bushes are only lightly nipped and there is clearance for the spring eye to pivot on them. But without some form of spacer tube a plain bolt is going to tighten the shackles onto the bushes and spring eye, restricting movement, and probably damaging the bushes in a short time.

I decided to modify some myself. But rather than cut up and weld a piece into my existing ones I bought two pairs of the standard items and used those. This was for two reasons - I wanted a 'proper' set to go back to if I needed to, and I wanted only one weld in each rather than two. In the event it was an easy enough job and if I were doing it again I would extend the existing pair with two welds and a piece of flat bar and save myself £40.

The first job was to decide how long - the distance between the centres of the shackle pins - I wanted them to be. The standard items are 2.5", I wanted about an extra inch as measured between the hub centre and the bottom of the chrome strip, and given the various angles and lengths of parts I reckoned on about 1.25" longer at the shackle, i.e. 3.75" in total. I didn't want to guess and get it wrong but be a bit more scientific, so I made up two wooden blocks to go between the spring eyes and the chassis rails, shackles removed, then added and removed further wooden 'shims' until I got my 1" extra between hub and trim. This was a bit of a fiddle, jacking and lowering the spring and axle, but fortunately I got it right on the second go. I then measured the distance between the centres of the holes in the chassis rail and spring eye, and it turned out to be 3.75". Oh well, at least I knew it was going to be right.

At this point a word about removing the springs. I say 'removing' but I didn't actually remove them altogether, the front bolt was all that was left so the following process is good for complete removal too:

• Jack under the axle to raise the back of the car off the ground and securely support the body under the rear spring front mounting point reinforcing plates, high enough so that the wheels are off the ground when the jack is removed.
• Lower the axle so it is suspended on the rebound straps, or, if your straps are broken or suspect don't go any lower than good rebound straps would allow to avoid stressing the dampers or rear brake flex hose, and support the axle near the bottom of its travel on axle stands. Now would be a good time to replace bad rebound straps!
• Now jack under the spring itself, close to the U-bolts. Raise it a couple of inches or so but not so much as to start lifting the body off its supports.
• Remove the four U-bolt nuts, pull the damper mounting plate and spring locating plate down off the U-bolts and push them towards the front of the car so that they are under the front half of the spring. If you raised the spring and axle high enough above this is easily accomplished in the normal downward travel of the damper.
• Jack the spring down, it will clear the U-bolts, and keep going until all tension is released, pushing the damper mounting plate further forward if required.
• Remove the rear shackle. With no tension in the spring you should be able to wiggle it about to get it free once the closing plate is off. If the rubber bushes are damaged or perished change them.
• Removing the front mounting bolt now will allow complete removal of the spring, if required. Take care, they are surprisingly heavy! If the drivers side has sagged more than the passengers swapping over the springs will restore an element of balance when the car is occupied.

By putting wooden blocks between the spring rear eyes and chassis rails and varying the thickness of the blocks with shims, supporting the springs under the axle on jacks and lowering the car till the tyres just touch the ground, you can get a reasonably accurate measurement of the distance between the centre of the hub and the bottom of the trim strip as it will be in normal use. The distance between the centres of the holes on the spring and chassis rail then determines the required shackle length. With a pair of dial calipers I used the outside jaws to measure the distance between the closest part of the two holes, then used the inside jaws to measure the furthest part, halved the difference and added that to the lowest figure to get the centres.

By cutting and shutting two pairs of shackles, as I was, you then have to determine where to make the cut. I felt it best to make each half the same length, which meant half of 3.75" i.e. 1.875" from the centre of one of the pins. Careful measuring, scribing and cutting produced the pieces as shown in the picture on the left (click to enlarge). As well as the pieces from four shackles which are going to be welded together to produce two, you can also see an example of the discarded parts of each shackle. 3/75" is just inside the flat part of the shackle plates, much more and you would be cutting across the dished part (which is no big deal but it would look a bit odd when welded together), and you only have about 0.25" available anyway before you reach the pin. Don't weld half of a closing plate to half of a pin plate as I have the top ones laid out! I didn't, but only noticed I had them laid out incorrectly when viewing the picture when I came to write this account.

I wanted to grind the welds flat after fabrication, so to get maximum strength from the weld I ground both sides of each cut edge at an approximate 45% angle to make a 'V' groove each side when the pieces were put together, as shown in this picture. Not terribly clear, but you should be able to make them out.

Next came the job of welding them together. I decided to do the shackle plates before the closing plates as I considered the former easier to get aligned with reference to each other, then the closing plates can be aligned with reference to the welded shackle plate. The shackle plates need to be aligned such that the pins are parallel in two dimensions - one so that the centres of the pins are the same distance apart for the whole of their length, and the other so that the two pins are at the same angle when viewed one behind the other. Finally the two halves of the shackle plate should be as level and flat as the previous two alignment criteria allow. I opted for holding them lightly in a vice across their width, tapping first one then the other until all three criteria were met, then tightening the vice and making sure they were still correctly aligned. Because I was welding two halves of different shackles together they were of slightly different widths which meant that when one was tight in the vice the other was still loose, so I used some thick card as 'soft jaws' which deformed and gripped each half with relatively equal force. I MIG welded one side filling the 'V', checked the alignment again, then turned them over and welded the other side filling the other 'V'.

The closing plates are less critical, only having to get them flat and level, and using the completed shackle plates to ensure that the holes are at the correct centres. The welded and ground parts can be seen here.

All that remains is to fit them. With the U-bolts undone and the spring tension released you should be able to insert the shackles and bushes into the spring eye and chassis rail quite easily. Because they are longer than the originals and because the spring may be resting on the previously removed damper locating plate in its forward position, you may have to pull the rear end of the spring down a little against its tension in order to get the shackle in. You may also need a little Waxoyl or washing-up liquid on the bushes to act as a lubricant to aid insertion. Don't use oil or grease as it will rot rubber. Fit the closing plate, spring-washers and nuts. When tightening the nuts they may tighten up before the shoulder on the pin has located itself into the hole in the shackle plate, then come looser as they locate properly, before finally tightening up to 30 lb.ft.

Jack the spring up under the axle, fit the spring locating plate and damper mounting plate onto the U-bolts, and fit and tighten the U-bolt nuts. The Workshop Manual shows double-nuts which can be locked together, but Nyloc nuts seem to be fairly common these days. Some say Nyloc nuts should only be used once, but I have seen a reference in a manual that says as long as you can't turn them with your fingers they are fine to reuse. If in doubt replace them. All that remains is to jack under the axle so you can remove the body supports, lower the wheels to the ground, and measure your new ride height after a short drive to settle things. After a longer drive recheck the tightness of the shackle and U-bolt nuts. The fitted shackles can be seen here, pointing slightly to the rear, and not far off right-angles to the spring which is nearly flat.

A comparison of 'today' (February 2017) with when first modified, after some 14 years and 25k miles:

Note that extending the shackles will apply more leverage to the chassis rail bushes so you can expect a little more lateral axle movement when cornering. Bee's 175 tyres do rub both sides occasionally, but that is a factor of wheel offset with her after-market wire wheels more than anything else.